Friday, July 30, 2010

Why Isn't Steve Garvey In The Hall Of Fame?

This was first posted in May of 2009. Go to Why Isn't Steve Garvey In The Hall Of Fame?. It has generated comments every few months, so if people are interested I thought I would post it again. What I tried to show was that he seems to be the kind of player the writers like to vote in and that you could make a good case for him, that is, write an impressive plaque. But he has not made it. I don't think he was good enough, but the puzzle is why he has not made it.

Here is one slightly new tidbit. Last year I mentioned that Garvey had 6 200+ hit seasons. Through 2009, here are all the players who had 4 or more. Alot of them are in the Hall of Fame or will probably make it, or would have made it without doing something scandalous:

Pete Rose 10
Ty Cobb 9
Ichiro Suzuki 9
Lou Gehrig 8
Willie Keeler 8
Paul Waner 8
Rogers Hornsby 7
Derek Jeter 7
Wade Boggs 7
Charlie Gehringer 7
Steve Garvey 6
Bill Terry 6
Stan Musial 6
Jesse Burkett 6
George Sisler 6
Sam Rice 6
Al Simmons 6
Kirby Puckett 5
Chuck Klein 5
Tony Gwynn 5
Michael Young 5
Harry Heilmann 4
Jack Tobin 4
Roberto Clemente 4
Joe Jackson 4
Tris Speaker 4
Paul Molitor 4
Juan Pierre 4
Jim Rice 4
Joe Medwick 4
Heinie Manush 4
Vada Pinson 4
Lou Brock 4
Vladimir Guerrero 4
Lloyd Waner 4
Nap Lajoie 4
Rod Carew 4

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

Despite his success as a ballpalyer, I feel he is being penalized for his sleazy personal ethics which are in question. He doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame; ditto Pete Rose for gambling. Garvey is such a phony. Read Cynthia Garvey's book and you'll see why. Frances Reyes
Los Angeles 1-14-11

Cyril Morong said...

Frances

Thanks for dropping by. It could be that his scandals are what kept him out. What are some of the worst things his ex-wife said?

Cy

Anonymous said...

Because the hall is filled only with players of impeckable personal ethics. Well the next few years will surely weigh on that one....what I find stunning is that he is the only player to have more than 200 hits 5 times or more, not in the hall, that isn't banned. At least officially. Maybe he needs to build a hospital or a wing on a local university.

Cyril Morong said...

Thanks for dropping by and commenting. Maybe ethics should be a factor. How would that apply to Ty Cobb or Gaylor Perry or Cap Anson?

Boffo Zoo said...

Ok, this is a long comment, on an old post, so I apologize, but that first 'Anonymous' comment doesn't sit well with me.
Even if ethics are a factor, I don't think they should be a particularly deciding factor, especially if the allegedly 'questionable' ethics were in regards to something other than Baseball itself, and certainly when the majority of these incidents occurred after the completion of his playing career. The fact that Garvey's dirty laundry happened to receive particular public airing doesn't discount his big league career and the accomplishments therein, which should be the larger criteria used to decide whether or not he's inducted. Like you said before, how would we apply these same 'ethical standards' to other folk already in the hall who have had less than stellar personal conduct, and Gaylord Perry particularly, who's misconduct and cheating took place on the field, during play, actually effected the outcome of games, and over-inflated his stats.
If we want to get into philandering, one could write a series of encyclopedias about the number of affairs (be they 'alleged' or 'confirmed') of any number of Hall of Fame players, but even then one could boil it down to two words: Mickey Mantle, who's like, the JFK of baseball. Sure, he's got better stats than Garvey, and he's more well known/loved by the general public, but were his 'ethics' any less 'questionable' and was his whole 'squeaky clean' image any less phony?

Cyril Morong said...

You make some good points. Maybe the writers don't look at ethics as much when you achieve a mile stone like 300 wins or 500 HRs. Although steroids seem to be keeping McGwire and Palmeiro out so far. I peronally am not saying Garvey was especially less ethical than anyone else. It is just a guess as to what the voters were thinking. And if they did take ethics into account, why in Garvey's case and not in other cases? I don't know

Bob Roe said...

It is beyond my reasoning why writers, most of whom have never picked up a bat in their life, have the ability to keep a man such as Garvey out of the HOF. I don't need to get into his stats, as you have already documented them, but Garvey was also the most dominant first baseman of his era. Sure, Keith Hernandez came along but that is just one man. Garvey played in four World Series with the Dodgers and helped the hapless San Diego Padres to the N.L. pennant in 1984. His home run in game four of the NLCS was epic. Garvey was clutch in every way. His off-the-field issues should never have entered into the writers minds.

Cyril Morong said...

Bob

Thanks for dropping by and commenting. I am not sure I agree that he was the dominant 1B man in his era. He does not have even one of the top 50 seasons among 1B men in Offenisve Winning Percentage from 1969-1987, the years he played. He had only one top 10 in OWP, a 9th in 1974. His clutch stats were good, but not great. See

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/G/Jgarvs0010.htm

Cy

Todd Trulli said...

Did you happen to see him play? I'm now 40 so I don't have recognition of watching him much as a kid. But I do agree in the eyeball test -- what did those who saw him play have to say? A good friend and fellow baseball junkie, who also was a Strat-O-Matic addict, said Garvey, and Don Sutton, belong in the hall of good. I grew up on baseball cards and baseball encyclopedia and couldn't wrap my head around Garvey not being in the hall of fame.

Cyril Morong said...

I saw him on TV alot in the 70s and 80s. The writers, who saw him alot, too, must have liked him then since he got 2.46 MVP shares, which ranks 59th all-time. But then the writers did not vote hime in (although it is not exactly the same set of writers).

LastnameKim said...

Interesting comments on Garvey. Although this post was from a few years back, I'm still scratching my head to why he's not being voted in to the HOF. He was as a reliable player as Ripken, day in and day out. Maybe he slept with some of the writers' wives...just brainstorming. =)

Cyril Morong said...

Thanks for dropping by and commenting.

Anonymous said...

Cy, you've noted that Garvey doesn't have one of the top 50 seasons among 1B men in Offensive Winning Percentage from 1969-1987. But what does the data tell us if you run 1B Offenisve Winning Percentage from 1974-1986? Garvey was marginalized by the Dodgers until '74. Heck, he was so off the radar, the fans literally wrote him into the all star game. I think he had a career ending injury well before the all star break in 1987, so best to throw that out too. Also, who among those on the '69-'87 top 50 seasons lists repeats? I'd imagine Eddie Murray and Keith Hernandez appear more than once. Maybe Tony Perez? Otherwise, I'd guess it is a sea of one-season wonders where Garv was always solid.

Cyril Morong said...

Here are the top 50 among qualifiers from 1974-86. Garvey has a 45th and that is it. Other guys appear multiple times

1 Rod Carew 1977 .813 Twins
2 John Mayberry 1975 .782 Royals
3 Eddie Murray 1984 .770 Orioles
4 Cecil Cooper 1980 .745 Brewers
5 Don Mattingly 1984 .744 Yankees
6 Don Mattingly 1986 .742 Yankees
7 Don Mattingly 1985 .739 Yankees
8 Eddie Murray 1983 .735 Orioles
9 Dick Allen 1974 .734 White Sox
10 Boog Powell 1975 .731 Indians
11 Keith Hernandez 1979 .729 Cardinals
12 Bob Watson 1976 .729 Astros
13 Rod Carew 1978 .724 Twins
14 Eddie Murray 1982 .724 Orioles
15 Jack Clark 1985 .723 Cardinals
16 Rod Carew 1976 .723 Twins
17 Eddie Murray 1985 .719 Orioles
18 Al Oliver 1982 .715 Expos
19 Keith Hernandez 1986 .715 Mets
20 Eddie Murray 1981 .710 Orioles
21 Keith Hernandez 1980 .707 Cardinals
22 Keith Hernandez 1984 .705 Mets
23 Cecil Cooper 1982 .704 Brewers
24 Andre Thornton 1978 .700 Indians
25 Willie Stargell 1975 .700 Pirates
26 Keith Hernandez 1981 .699 Cardinals
27 Carl Yastrzemski 1974 .698 Red Sox
28 Mike Schmidt 1985 .695 Phillies
29 Alvin Davis 1984 .693 Mariners
30 Gene Tenace 1976 .693 A's
31 Bob Watson 1975 .691 Astros
32 Jason Thompson 1980 .689 Tigers/Angels
33 Mike Hargrove 1977 .688 Rangers
34 Cecil Cooper 1981 .688 Brewers
35 Andre Thornton 1977 .688 Indians
36 Darrell Evans 1983 .686 Giants
37 Eddie Murray 1978 .683 Orioles
38 Pete Rose 1979 .679 Phillies
39 Bob Watson 1977 .678 Astros
40 Kent Hrbek 1984 .678 Twins
41 Willie Aikens 1981 .677 Royals
42 Jason Thompson 1982 .677 Pirates
43 George Hendrick 1983 .672 Cardinals
44 Keith Hernandez 1983 .672 Cardinals/Mets
45 Steve Garvey 1974 .670 Dodgers
46 Joe Rudi 1975 .666 A's
47 Gene Tenace 1978 .665 Padres
48 Mike Hargrove 1976 .665 Rangers
49 Cecil Cooper 1983 .665 Brewers
50 Eddie Murray 1986 .663 Orioles

Anonymous said...

Thanks for pulling that data Cy. Shocking not to see Tony Perez on that list. Isn't Perez in the HOF?

Cyril Morong said...

Yes, Perez is in the Hall. But his 4 best seasons were before 1974. Here is the top 32 from 1961-73. Perez makes it twice

OWP YEAR OWP
1 Norm Cash 1961 .864 Tigers
2 Willie McCovey 1969 .847 Giants
3 Dick Allen 1972 .817 White Sox
4 Jim Gentile 1961 .804 Orioles
5 Hank Aaron 1971 .804 Braves
6 Willie McCovey 1970 .798 Giants
7 Willie McCovey 1968 .792 Giants
8 Carl Yastrzemski 1970 .784 Red Sox
9 Willie McCovey 1966 .781 Giants
10 Harmon Killebrew 1967 .777 Twins
11 Boog Powell 1970 .770 Orioles
12 Bob Allison 1964 .764 Twins
13 John Mayberry 1972 .760 Royals
14 Tony Perez 1973 .758 Reds
15 Orlando Cepeda 1967 .757 Cardinals
16 Mike Epstein 1972 .756 A's
17 Orlando Cepeda 1963 .752 Giants
18 Norm Cash 1971 .748 Tigers
19 Willie Stargell 1972 .740 Pirates
20 Willie McCovey 1967 .733 Giants
21 Dick Allen 1969 .728 Phillies
22 Boog Powell 1966 .726 Orioles
23 Harmon Killebrew 1961 .720 Twins
24 Don Mincher 1967 .719 Angels
25 Mickey Mantle 1967 .719 Yankees
26 John Mayberry 1973 .715 Royals
27 Boog Powell 1969 .715 Orioles
28 Gene Tenace 1973 .714 A's
29 Orlando Cepeda 1964 .703 Giants
30 Norm Siebern 1962 .697 A's
31 Felipe Alou 1966 .697 Braves
32 Tony Perez 1972 .694 Reds

Cyril Morong said...

If I do the top 50 from 1967-81, the years Perez qualified, he has two of the top 37

OWP YEAR OWP
1 Willie McCovey 1969 .847 Giants
2 Dick Allen 1972 .817 White Sox
3 Rod Carew 1977 .813 Twins
4 Hank Aaron 1971 .804 Braves
5 Willie McCovey 1970 .798 Giants
6 Willie McCovey 1968 .792 Giants
7 Carl Yastrzemski 1970 .784 Red Sox
8 John Mayberry 1975 .782 Royals
9 Harmon Killebrew 1967 .777 Twins
10 Boog Powell 1970 .770 Orioles
11 John Mayberry 1972 .760 Royals
12 Tony Perez 1973 .758 Reds
13 Orlando Cepeda 1967 .757 Cardinals
14 Mike Epstein 1972 .756 A's
15 Norm Cash 1971 .748 Tigers
16 Cecil Cooper 1980 .745 Brewers
17 Willie Stargell 1972 .740 Pirates
18 Dick Allen 1974 .734 White Sox
19 Willie McCovey 1967 .733 Giants
20 Boog Powell 1975 .731 Indians
21 Keith Hernandez 1979 .729 Cardinals
22 Bob Watson 1976 .729 Astros
23 Dick Allen 1969 .728 Phillies
24 Rod Carew 1978 .724 Twins
25 Rod Carew 1976 .723 Twins
26 Don Mincher 1967 .719 Angels
27 Mickey Mantle 1967 .719 Yankees
28 John Mayberry 1973 .715 Royals
29 Boog Powell 1969 .715 Orioles
30 Gene Tenace 1973 .714 A's
31 Eddie Murray 1981 .710 Orioles
32 Keith Hernandez 1980 .707 Cardinals
33 Andre Thornton 1978 .700 Indians
34 Willie Stargell 1975 .700 Pirates
35 Keith Hernandez 1981 .699 Cardinals
36 Carl Yastrzemski 1974 .698 Red Sox
37 Tony Perez 1972 .694 Reds