tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post7483317796709969407..comments2024-01-26T13:08:26.506-08:00Comments on Cybermetrics: Why Isn't Steve Garvey In The Hall Of Fame?Cyril Moronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comBlogger93125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-70605461233903824832018-06-20T19:40:06.320-07:002018-06-20T19:40:06.320-07:00It is amazing how long these threads go. There was...It is amazing how long these threads go. There was also a very embarrassing Inside Sports interview with Garvey's wife in which she delved deeply into Ball Four/Joe Pepitone types of revelations about their marital relationship. It was yuck right at the end of that period where reporters stopped caring about ball players who cheated and moved on to players that used drugs as their crusade. I think that I still have the issue among my huge boxes of old sports magazines. I was probably 12 when the article came out and it wasn't to my taste and I still wish that I could forget reading about her complaints about missing him when he was on the road (and that is the nicest way that I can phrase what she actually said.)Jane Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13860550544008642749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-5291610904864400582018-04-24T09:38:32.575-07:002018-04-24T09:38:32.575-07:00Great points. Thanks for reading and posting. No, ...Great points. Thanks for reading and posting. No, I did not know that he played FB at MSUCyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-7998980632363387852018-04-23T08:46:54.002-07:002018-04-23T08:46:54.002-07:00Bet you boys don't know that Garvey played DB ...Bet you boys don't know that Garvey played DB with the Michigan State football team in the late 60's.(Hard to picture,since he was five-nine and slow,but he wasn't bad.)<br />Garvey amassed some pretty but ultimately over-rated numbers.He drove in 100 runs four or five times,but used a tremendous number of outs to get them.Thus,he was inefficient offensively.He was a good,though also overrated fielder,nowhere nearly Keith Hernandez,Bill Buckner or for us older lads,Vic Power.He simply isn't Hall Of Fame caliber,though a very good player.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11119219201881521084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-14639186034960890412017-01-20T16:24:08.144-08:002017-01-20T16:24:08.144-08:00Jim Wynn 7.7
Ron Cey 4.8
Steve Garvey 4.4
Davey Lo...Jim Wynn 7.7<br />Ron Cey 4.8<br />Steve Garvey 4.4<br />Davey Lopes 3.6<br />Willie Crawford* 3.5<br />Joe Ferguson 3.5<br />Bill Buckner* 3<br />Bill Russell 3<br />Steve Yeager 2.7<br />Cyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-21251818042785819222017-01-20T15:19:04.954-08:002017-01-20T15:19:04.954-08:00What are Garvs main teammates like Cey,Baker,Lopes...What are Garvs main teammates like Cey,Baker,Lopes, and Smith and Wynn in 74 WARs compared to him? Cuz I REMEMBER THOSE Dodgers as a team where everyone contributed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09851296280864859829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-25789860098865487902016-08-06T19:02:55.821-07:002016-08-06T19:02:55.821-07:00Thanks for reading and taking the time to commentThanks for reading and taking the time to commentCyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-77529048850177743862016-08-06T18:34:02.297-07:002016-08-06T18:34:02.297-07:00Thanks for this very fun read. I don't underst...Thanks for this very fun read. I don't understand a lot of the 21st Century metrics and their relevance to games gone by from a different era but I did watch Steve Garvey's career closely. <br /> Garvey was a star player, clutch in the postseason and as an All-Star, usually one of the best players on the field when he played. He had career-defining moments, he played in and won the World Series. It's puzzling that he didn't make it into the Hall within a few years of eligibility. Every game opposing teams had to game-plan for his presence. His teams won and his contributions were key to those wins. During his playing days it was pretty clear he was a HOF-er. Paternity suits? Really? Nowadays, that's nothing. Back then it was a little more egregious in the eyes of the people<br /> But the biggest WTH? is that Tony Perez, his counterpart on a good division rival [yes, children, the Dodgers and Reds for a long time were NL West rivals] got the nod. They were very comparable players, although Perez had a lot more RBI. But even when they were playing Garvey was the better first-baseman, more important to his team's success. If Perez is HOF so is Garvey.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10386538023441538025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-45277244863113411282015-08-23T07:24:05.865-07:002015-08-23T07:24:05.865-07:00Garvey is not in the HOF because people didn't...Garvey is not in the HOF because people didn't like his off-the-field personal problems. What a stupid reason not to vote for a player who hit those stats over a a career. All I hear is personal reasons or the over-rated JAWS machine rankings as reasons. Terrible bias.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00162347390572229572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-6427069257975316922015-03-24T18:21:53.509-07:002015-03-24T18:21:53.509-07:00Kent would not be a bad choice
In WAR Position Pla...Kent would not be a bad choice<br />In WAR Position Players he is 144th Cyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-41989932850227719682015-03-24T14:44:34.072-07:002015-03-24T14:44:34.072-07:00Then again, why isn't Jeff Kent in?Then again, why isn't Jeff Kent in?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-37440609724822389972014-07-30T05:06:53.882-07:002014-07-30T05:06:53.882-07:00Teddy
Thanks for the interesting comments. Changi...Teddy<br /><br />Thanks for the interesting comments. Changing perceptions by the writers does seem possible. Maybe if he had reached some major milestone late in his career as a Dodger, that might have helped.<br /><br />CyCyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-51351735401807966732014-07-29T21:18:45.832-07:002014-07-29T21:18:45.832-07:00Great post Cyril. I think the arguments you’ve ma...Great post Cyril. I think the arguments you’ve made and most of the commenters outlined support that Steve Garvey is indeed Hall-of-Fame worthy – albeit not a no brainer. To answer your fundamental question I think there are a few events overlooked in your post and subsequent comments that doomed Garvey’s candidacy with the HOF writers. <br /><br />1. Despite ranking as the all-time active hits leaders in his injury-shortened, final season, Garvey’s exit from the majors was highly anticlimactic for a player whose star had shined as bright as anyone in his era for a prolonged stretch. He retired rather suddenly late in the offseason, off a lengthy DL stint, in a sleepy media market. <br /><br />2. Just as Garvey retired, a cadre of key steroid-era first basemen (McGwire, Palmeiro, Clark, and Galarraga) was emerging. By the time Garvey was eligible for the HOF ballot, this group and other heavy hitters were in their primes, resetting the perceived productivity bar at the position each critical year Garvey was under consideration.<br /><br />I’m sure questions about Garvey’s character influenced a handful of HOF writers, but I bet they’ll hurt him more with the Veteran’s Committee.<br /><br />Thanks, TeddyKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-65257980621289900322013-08-17T13:35:59.580-07:002013-08-17T13:35:59.580-07:00Thanks for dropping by and commentingThanks for dropping by and commentingCyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-71427556661020923672013-08-17T12:26:27.950-07:002013-08-17T12:26:27.950-07:00.329 on base percentage - way not good enough..329 on base percentage - way not good enough.Will "take no prisoners" Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02315659209094683602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-2359146139637053112013-07-02T05:51:15.480-07:002013-07-02T05:51:15.480-07:00Thanks for dropping by and commenting.
Where do I...Thanks for dropping by and commenting.<br /><br />Where do I "start comparing to the lowest common denominator players who are in the Hall."<br /><br />Where do I "fault" him for 1B?<br /><br />You want to use batting average and that just is not a good stat to look at. OBP and SLG are better.<br /><br />What is an "All American dude?" <br /><br />Cyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-28022372512033993332013-07-01T20:19:42.265-07:002013-07-01T20:19:42.265-07:00As we Cubs fans did for decades for Ron Santo.... ...As we Cubs fans did for decades for Ron Santo.... you are in a losing battle when you start comparing to the lowest common denominator players who are in the Hall. Here is what I like - 5 WS appearances, and he was a money player in all of those playoffs. 1 WS title. The "Cubs" game in '84. The ironman streak and playing with a broken jaw at one point. The glove. The .300+ average that slid late in his career to .294. The epitome of the 70's California ballplayer, and All American dude. I think there is enough there for Garvey, and do not understand why you fault a guy for playing 1st base. If Garvey was a true 3B, he'd be in already.Baseball Geek 23noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-76917529671337680822013-05-10T15:52:28.177-07:002013-05-10T15:52:28.177-07:00Thanks for dropping by and commenting. You're ...Thanks for dropping by and commenting. You're right about the morals issue. But what do you think about the sabermetric measures? Garvey does not look so good on those.Cyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-45329129519880788882013-05-10T13:26:28.018-07:002013-05-10T13:26:28.018-07:00It never ceases to amaze me how anyone could possi...It never ceases to amaze me how anyone could possibly think Garvey doesn't belong in the HOF....his games played streak & fielding pct. record alone should qualify him for entry. But add in his post season stats, MVP awards, All Star game appearances, etc. & this should be the proverbial "no brainer." As for his personal reputation OUTSIDE the game, if someone like Garvey is to be denied his rightful place in the HOF because he turned out not to be the squeaky clean PR persona that the Dodgers created, let's remove a few other current HOF residents for their sordid personal lives, guys like Ty Cobb (all around bigoted a-hole), Babe Ruth (drinking, carousing, once actually urinated on a team mate), Mickey Mantle (alcoholic), but hey, why bother? If HOF voters are going to hold a player's personal life against them when considering their baseball accomplishments (as idiot sports writers constantly do), then we might as well empty the HOF & start over, as a sizable pct. of HOF inductees had some kind of low moral behavior issues. The HOF has really become more of a joke in recent years, all but ignoring truly relevant stats in favor of nostalgic sentimental nonsense about how "imposing" a batter someone was, or how "acrobatic" a fielder someone was, or how someone just happened to be a member of numerous championship TEAMS. Although the process is, at the end of the day, subjective, if we really just examine the obvious, there shouldn't even be a discussion about guys like Garvey going into the Hall.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08774905774045424931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-89367114435048490382013-01-27T08:41:37.837-08:002013-01-27T08:41:37.837-08:00Lets compare larkin and garveys career since his n...Lets compare larkin and garveys career since his name got brought up.<br /><br />.295 and .294 average. Garvey hit a better milestone with 2500 to 2300. Advantage garvey<br /><br />12 all star games to 10 for larkin. Is shortstop easier to get into the all star game than 1st base? Im sure we can agree it is based on talent in that position. Larkin hit .111 in 12 all star games and didnt play in 3 of them. Garvey hit over 300 and won 2 mvps. And didnt garvey start more of them too? Advantage garvey<br /><br />Post season. Both his .338 strangely enough. Garvey 3 times as many plate appearances and on better teams. Larkin 3 rbi's in his entire post season history?? That might be an all time low. Even if its not its pathetic. 5 world series versus 1. Garvey has a memorable game winning home run of course too. Advantage garvey<br /><br />Other stats are pretty similar. Doubles. Home runs and rbis are of course better with garvey and steals with larkin. No obvious huge numbers on either there. <br /><br />Larkin missed a good amount of playing time. Garvey mr. Consistent.<br /><br />Garvey better fielder as well. Stats wise<br /><br />Then there is also baseball legend. Legend as in how players are spoke of. Like a josh gibson being better than a babe ruth. Does anyone even remember larkin having any great plays? Or a great story? Will anyone even remember larkin? Do they now??<br /><br />Its sad certain positions get a nod for consistency like a catcher, ss or 2b. While 1st baseman needs some huge numbers. Oh but not too big to have any possible steroid rumours attached to them.<br /><br />What it comes down to is what 1st baseman was better than garvey during his 10 year stretch? Nobody. Nobody in all facets of the game. Dependability, clutch hitting, fielding, winning teams. <br /><br />He will get in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-59396389946932442622013-01-13T16:23:17.166-08:002013-01-13T16:23:17.166-08:00Yeah, larkin is twice the player garvey was. Sarca...Yeah, larkin is twice the player garvey was. Sarcasm!<br />Reds were good maybe 5 years of his 20 years?<br /><br />Larkin was about as outstanding and transecending a player as biggio. Utterly forgetable were on mostly bad teams throughout their career. Hardly leaders even. <br /><br />Brownie points for hitting milestone numbers playing biased positions (ss) while playing for the same team their entire career. Which also gets biased votes. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-62743710400499795542013-01-12T18:04:53.287-08:002013-01-12T18:04:53.287-08:00Career WAR from Baseball Reference
Larkin 67.1
Ga...Career WAR from Baseball Reference<br /><br />Larkin 67.1<br />Garvey 34.4Cyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-46144297218371353802013-01-12T10:31:19.510-08:002013-01-12T10:31:19.510-08:00
Steve Garvey is a Hall of Famer period. You mea...<br /> Steve Garvey is a Hall of Famer period. You mean to tell me Barry Larkin is a Hall of Famer? Please!!!!!!!!!!!The Hackernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-35859457310545856622013-01-01T14:34:52.265-08:002013-01-01T14:34:52.265-08:00All of the reasons why he isnt in the hall of fame...All of the reasons why he isnt in the hall of fame except his production diminishing are opinions. So I will give my opinion. He deserves the nod .<br />One unfortunate thing about Garvey was that dodgers didn't play him regularly until 1974 and he was 24/25 years old by then. If he would have gotten more play from when he was 20-24 he would have gotten 3000 hits. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-9374288138979658142012-12-27T18:37:02.111-08:002012-12-27T18:37:02.111-08:00Nobody cares about grounding into double plays. Co...Nobody cares about grounding into double plays. Come on. Does anyone say anything about reggie jacksons 2500+ strikeouts? Exactly<br /><br />Fact is if you polled sportswriters, fans, managers and players when garvey was playing i would guess 80% or higher would say he was the best first baseman inbthe game at the time. If we could go back. Clearly the fans did with his starts over the lackluster tony perez who rode the benefit of the best lineup for a decade, and as you said his mvp votes, the sportwriters said so. <br /><br />So clearly is not in the hall for not having any of the automatic career milestones. <br /><br />A prime example is craig biggio will be an automatic shoe in for 3000 hits. Hmmm. Astros. What maybe 2 division titles ? No world series appearances? Hes getting in for hits and doubles? Biggio wouldnt be in the top 20 best players during his career.<br /><br />Factoring that garvey was 5 foot 10 and the best pitchers park in the league are important side notes. I understand u compared road to home but im sure he would have another 3-5 homers a year at home.<br /><br />Nobody cares about WAR, GDP or any other lower tier stat. Garvey is not in the hall for career milestones. Yet if u compare his numbers to hall of famers of his period they are on par. Robin yount, eddir murray, dave winfield and many other good hitter / second tier sluggers. <br /><br /><br />And to your point there are plenty of talking points to what are a near great career highlights. <br />He has the plaque written. Popeye forearms for legends to speak to. Mr.clean was a bad nickname and it wasnt popular in the west. Popeye was a more fitting name. I dont remember anyone calling him mr.clean. i suppose that nickname hurts him now. Being from los angelea i never hears mr clean.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-608528753722196209.post-54208099167834714722012-12-27T06:31:44.422-08:002012-12-27T06:31:44.422-08:00Yes, you can compare Dawson to Garvey and yes 1987...Yes, you can compare Dawson to Garvey and yes 1987 was a big offensive year. But WAR adjusts for the context, so if you hit .300 in a high offensive year, it does not help you as much as other years.<br /><br />I think Hall of Fame voters are always comparing guys to who came before and after.<br /><br />Teams now employ lots of people (like Bill James), who never played the game and they are inventing new stats all the time to help their teams win.<br /><br />Players are supposed to help their teams win and WAR captures that pretty well. So even if a player knows nothing about the stat, the more he does to help his team win the higher it will be. Maybe a guy like Garvey tried to drive in runs more than get walks. But I doubt this would affect his WAR very much. He would never have had a very high OBP.<br /><br />Maybe he was dominant in some sense, since he did so well in the MVP voting. But then why does he not do well in the Hall of Fame voting?<br /><br />On the 200 hit issue, see my post <br /><br />http://cybermetric.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-isnt-steve-garvey-in-hall-of-fame.html<br /><br />This next post shows that his probability of getting in the Hall was very high using the standards and criteria normally used by the voters<br /><br />http://cybermetric.blogspot.com/2009/05/predicting-who-makes-hall-of-fame-using.html<br /><br />Based on things like Gold Gloves and All-star games and other stats that the voters seem to care about, Garvey had a probability of 95.7%<br /><br />As for RBIs, that depends partly on the guys who bat ahead of you.<br /><br />See his splits at Retrosheet<br /><br />http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/G/Jgarvs0010.htm<br /><br />He hit a bit better than normal with runners on base, but nothing huge.<br /><br />Also, he led the league in grounding into DPs twice had finished in the top 5 6 times. You have to look at the negatives, too.<br /><br />His career RBI to GDP ratio was 5.21. The average for righties from 1946-2005 with 5000+ PAs was 5.71. He is 160th out of 274 guys. So you can bring up his RBIs, but don't forget GDPs. And this shows he produced RBIs at a high cost.<br /><br />Was he the dominant 1B man of his time? From 1970-1990, he was 4th in AVG and 9th in SLG among 1B men with 4000+ PAs. There were 23 such guys. That looks good but hardly dominant. If I do relative to league AVG he stays 4th in AVG but falls to 10th in SLGCyril Moronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148864847009186694noreply@blogger.com